Addressing safety and security concerns in cloud-based practice
- Experiences and challenges in the software solution industry
- Building brand awareness and credibility
- His philosophy on achieving work-life balance
Subscribe to Episode 25 of Cloud Stories on iTunes
Heather: What historical figure would you like to have coffee with, and why?
David: What historical figure. You caught me off guard by that. He’s not really historical. I was a big Bob Hawke fan. I’ve always admired the man. He’s certainly been the best Australian Prime Minister. I’ve managed to have golf with him once upon a time, and that was just a wonderful experience. Yes, I would certainly be keen to grab some more time with him. He was very insightful, a real down-to-earth guy, and a little arrogant too. I just thought he was the real “man of the people”. I really enjoyed the time I got to spend with him.
Heather: Well, that’s interesting. That was out of the blue. Fantastic! Thank you for that.
David, you spent 20 years in the financial software industry, witnessing the shift from DOS to Windows and more recently from desktop to cloud. What concerns do you hear from people worried about moving to the cloud?
David: I imagine they’re the same ones that we’ve all been hearing for a number of years. The nice thing is, in Australia and New Zealand, in recent years, I’ve heard a lot less concern around safety and security of data. That’s really where it was three to four years ago when I kicked off back at Xero. In these days, people have really moved on, and I think they accepted cloud as the norm.
It’s a little bit different though. Last year, I was privileged to be able to go to SleeterCon. That was a great experience. For me, that was a real eye-opener. That was around last November. What amazed me was that the accounting and the bookkeeping industry are still with the desktop. I think that is primarily because of the rich features of the desktop products that they were familiar with; they didn’t feel that the cloud offerings out there have the same richness in features.
There were certainly security concerns, and some of the questions that I was addressing and answering when at Xero three to four years back now were coming back out. So, it’s a conservative industry and one that is certainly moving a lot slower. It looks like it’s just now starting to accept the cloud as a way moving forward. So, I think it’s making the leaps and bounds of advancement in the US in the coming years. They are just several years behind while we are already here in Australia and New Zealand.
Heather: I hear that repeatedly, but it’s astonishing that it’s like that. It does seem to be a wave coming through. I also think that sometimes we get comfortable in feeling that we are in the cloud. So, I try to promote Receipt Bank to someone yesterday. She was going, “Oh, that sounds Russian.” I was like, “No, the data is okay. It’s not going to go to some sort of crazy places. It’s all okay.” But that concern of where the data was going still pops up all over the place. Yes, it’s something to be aware of when you’re dealing with people.
David: Yes, it is. When you think of the space that we’re in, we are dealing with financial information. People treat that with confidentiality to a degree. They are concerned that, if it’s out there, who may be able to access it? You keep bringing it back to internet banking comparisons, and people have been embracing internet banking for a very long time. They have the same levels of security and data encryption and have cloud offerings. People then start to realize that those concerns are long gone in Australia and New Zealand. The cloud is the norm, and they accepted that norm. I’m sure that will spread to the US and beyond.
Heather: David, you’ve worked in Senior Executive position at Xero, a New Zealand-based company, and with Receipt Bank, a UK-based company. What have you learned from introducing software solutions into Australia or New Zealand?
David: That’s a very good question. I think that the main lesson that I’ve learned is that, if you think you can just walk up into Australia, you better stalk about Australia first and pull out your local playbook. I think you’re kidding yourself. I think every geography has its own subtle nuances. Between Australia and New Zealand, there are subtle nuances in the way that you do business.
David: I think remain very committed about your long-term vision. I think what’s really important is you need to be flexible about how you’re going to get there. When I say flexible, I’m talking about embracing those local geography nuances. Some things are non negotiable. The culture of your organisation needs to be something that is instilled throughout all geographies, and that’s something that you don’t negotiate on.
There are areas where I think you do need to be flexible. There are some things that you do need to experience firsthand. There are things like recruitment policy. What’s in one geography may be slightly different in another. There are salaries that you’re offering, incentives that you’re offering staffs. I’ve learnt that sales commissions, for example, are not that prevalent in some countries. You’re building the sales force, and that’s kind of what it is. Incentives around performance tend to be very common for sales roles.
Also, I guess there are different ways we tend to do business in Australia. As an example, I’m a little traditional. Perhaps, I’m certainly a big fan of go and have the coffee with somebody. Have a look around the office—it’s amazing what you can learn from body language by just looking at somebody’s office. And I think that’s half an hour of your time exceptionally well spent.
There’s a temptation in this industry. We’re bringing cloud base that you could just crank up and jump on the video and do all the business from sitting at the desk. I will certainly just get out there and get in front of someone. I would like to be able to do that.
Heather: That’s a lot of time commitment to be getting in front of someone because a 30-minute coffee is like a 90-minute in and out session. So, that’s a lot of time commitment from you to do something like that.
David: Yes, you’ve got to be selective. You’ve got to be selfish with your time. I think it’s all based around the opportunity. Remember there are people that are in different stages of embracing the cloud and embracing your product. I think when you get to a stage that someone is showing that right level of commitment, it’s time well spent in my opinion.
I agree that you can’t be doing that right and left. Time has to be a concern. Particularly, in the early days, I’m really a big believer in trying scalability. That may alarm a few people, but I’ve always believed that in the early days, with the new solution, you almost want to do things that don’t scale. Your customers, make them your greatest advocates.
There was a time then when scalability becomes a whole lot more important where you have to do things. Perhaps, you may have other ways, get out there and come face-to-face. You do have to resort to email and phone contact. Certainly, in the early days, it’s about building advocacy and servicing customers to the extreme because customer experience is everything. They will be your greatest sales force.
Heather: And you do see that both with Xero and Receipt Bank whom you’ve worked with. They have these ambassadors who just promote the product, and you are kind of like watching them. You’re actually not a staff. You’re not in a sales commission. You’re just out there promoting the product. So, what you’ve done in both of those businesses has definitely worked and got a big groundswell of support.
David: It’s amazing. I mean that was what really attracted me to both organisations in the first place. You just follow them on social media or Twitter in particular. The advocacy we’ve seen from people that we’re dealing is infectious. It really is, and I think that’s exactly what happens. You get genuineness from the people that you’re working with in the organisation. They’re just enthused about everything they’re doing, and that seems to flow to the relationships that they’re forming with the accountants, the bookkeepers, the customers and their business clients.
It really gathers momentum and groundswell. It’s very genuine. It’s not fabricated. In both organisations, the people I’ve worked with are so genuinely passionate about what we’re doing. It was just wonderful to see that translate to the advocacy within your customer base.
Heather: Yes, they’re absolutely genuine, both of them. At all levels, you see people jumping on and addressing issues from internally within the staff to externally. Yes, definitely, that has translated. That’s really insightful for you to share that with us.
At the time of speaking, August 2015, the Xero community is surrounded by about 400 add-on solutions. Some of them are one-man bands and some of them are massive entities. When in their life cycle do you see that they need to direct money away from developing their solution towards marketing and selling their solution?
David: That’s a very good question. It’s an incredibly an eco system, isn’t it? I think I was doing the XeroCon Twitter feeds around yesterday. I think there were 440 add-ons partners in the eco system. They’ve reached a hundred down there exhibiting, which is just phenomenal. When I think back three to five years ago, it’s just amazing how it’s growing.
It’s about brand awareness to start with. It’s about building credibility. There is an element of land grab and trying to get as many advocates as you can around your products. So, there is a temptation there to go after the low hanging fruit. There are certainly cloud advocates out there that are happy to look at them and embrace most cloud-based applications. You can’t take them all on; it’s physically impossible for a bookkeeper to take them all on.
In fact, I’ve encouraged them to be very selective with whom they deal with. There are some great quotes that are floating around from the likes of Greg Tuckwell and Lisa Callaghan have thrown out there in the past. I know that Greg talks about one of the biggest mistakes he ever made was taking on too many add-on solutions. But they are getting a lot smarter around it. So, Xero was the platform for him. He started with horizontal solutions, and they decided to go a little bit more niche down a particular part.
Heather: Yes, Greg is very interesting because he is very defined in the solutions he uses for each application, be it debt tracking or be it business insights. He is very public about that as well. Again, you kind of go, if Greg is pushing it, I need to have a look at it.
David: Yes, you spread your resources internally. I think it will be out there if I’m able to support so many solutions. I think it’s naïve to think you can support dozens of solutions. I quoted Lisa earlier, Lisa Callaghan of Interactive Accounting unless it really serves the purposes of 80% possible clients, which at the moment, she’d prefer to go through the cloud-integrated channel or other experts involved. But, as far as building internal knowledge to be able to support a solution, she would have gone down the path of majority rules. She wants something that would generally apply or benefit the majority of her clients. I get the logic of that as well.
Heather: Yes, that’s really important and it’s really good for the accountants and bookkeepers out there listening into that to take that away with them.
David: I don’t know if I answered your original question, which was when do they start investing in marketing.
Heather: That’s fine. That’s good.
David: I think it’s a little bit unique. It’s going to be unique to the individual business. But there will be a time where I think you need to turn on the marketing switch. If I go back to Xero, very early on, Xero was a fairly unknown quantity. We had an unprompted awareness level that was in single figures. At that time, the company decided it was worth investing in broad-based marketing. Yes, we went hard. We’ve come into the radio, billboards, and that prompted awareness and it just went through the roof over a period of time.
That time was ripe. That took several years of building a brand first and getting them out to a certain point where it made sense to have some significant marketing. I think you’ll be throwing money out the window if you were to start marketing too heavily early. The joy of this industry is you can actually be some exceptionally cost-effective marketing from an early stage, and social media has a terrific role to play.
Heather: Yes, absolutely. It surprises me when people say, “I’m actually not even on social media.” Yes, just grab your Twitter handle or grab all your handles at least and be available there. But, again, it’s incredibly time-consuming. So, it’s getting that balance there.
I also find it interesting that we’re in the midst of XeroCon at the moment, and how some people save themselves to just launch at XeroCon amidst all these other stories happening at XeroCon. What do you think of that? Is that the most effective way for them to do it? Should they hold out and do the big launch at XeroCon?
David: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I’ve noticed that actually happens a lot in recent times. Look, we’re guilty of it too. If they think there was a big feature coming, it made sense to hold it off and announce it when you got to XeroCon. We certainly did that with Receipt Bank.
I can see them all the time. Again, I think that’s probably tipping your hat to the prominence of social media. There are people following the XeroCon stream and they’re watching the feeds. What a wonderful time to announce a new relationship and what a wonderful time to come to the market with a new feature when people are watching the stream.
What I find interesting I think is guerrilla marketing. I have to laugh. Look, I take my hat off to them too. Give credits when due. There are some coffee cups that I’ve seen floating around with competitors’ names on them. It’s credit to the likes of Xero. They’ve created a hell of an industry here. We’ve got a hell of a name and a hell of a following. They can piggyback on the back of that and do a little bit of guerrilla marketing. Well done!
Heather: Is it guerrilla or is it ambush marketing?
David: Both terms.
Heather: I didn’t know. I thought guerrilla was bit friendlier than ambush. I thought guerrilla was like you turned up a football stadium covered in Xero t-shirts.
Heather: No, I’m not the expert. I’m just asking.
David: I’ll take both of them, but I think you’re right, I think it’s somewhere between guerrilla and the ambush. I did laugh at that. Yes, it’s terrific. It’s an industry that is just booming. People want to piggyback off the market. Good luck to them.
Heather: For people listening in and perhaps didn’t see the XeroCon stream and wondering what’s happening there, outside of XeroCon, some competitors were giving out coffee, some were giving out sausages, and one offered to host a bar tab for people in the industry not going to XeroCon. So, yes, that was actually going to be my next question, and you answered it. You’re reading my mind. Sensational!
So, a number of the software solutions are looking to crack the enormous US market. Do you think that this is achievable? What would your plan of attack be?
David: It’s certainly true. It’s a massive market. I guess the appeal of the US is, is it size. You only need to get a very small percentage of that market and you can do exceptionally well. I think the biggest mistake that we have made and probably we will continue to make is to have it in the US too early. I think that’s again quite specific to the individuals.
Yes, the markets that seem to be most responsive to cloud accounting are, without a doubt, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and I’ve heard some terrific things about Canada as well. They seem to be markets that are a lot easier to penetrate. There are some complexities with the US. If you look at every state, they have significantly different legislations over there, even the vast size of the country alone. It’s exceptionally a difficult country to get around and to service. There are different time zones throughout the country.
Yes, there are complexities there, so I wouldn’t be rushing into New York. So, I think it’s probably important to establish yourself as a serious product in other geographies. The US is certainly there; it’s not going anywhere. I quite like having read that Xero are very open that there are a number of times that they got it wrong the first time around. They’re probably a little bit guilty of trying to rule out the playbook that worked in New Zealand and Australia.
That was a channel-led playbook essentially. There are channels over there, but the accountants and bookkeepers were just a little bit more conservative and not quite ready to make the leap into the cloud. So, having seen that they now really re-engineered the organisation and they’re going far more direct to small business, I think that makes a lot of sense.
The real attractive market over there, for me, in the US, would be the large number of businesses that are still using manual systems—spreadsheets or books. Forget about the dominant competitors that may be over there. They are going to be there for a long time, but the real exciting market is those that are using the manual systems at the moment and get them to automate.
Heather: Yes, it’s still surprising with the manual systems. I just converted someone who had a spreadsheet, and it was a million-dollar turnover. I know it was the most amazing spreadsheet, but it was exciting to see where she was going and putting on to Xero. I think they say it’s about 30% of people still aren’t using any form of accounting software or whatsoever. So, there is a lot of low hanging fruit to try and move over to Xero. I do wonder whether they should kind of go state by state, like just tackle California and get them onboard. It seems that there is such a complexity in the US.
David: Yes, we’ve done this certainly in the planning. The plan initially was in California, lets own California, it’s bigger than Australia. It’s funny that, as soon as you start making noise, interests spread and it’s very hard. When you’re in cloud-based solutions, you’re effectively spreading your net very far. There are probably 200 countries where there are businesses that are using products like Receipt Bank as well. It’s very hard to constrain yourself to just one site. Certainly, you can focus your efforts there, but you’re going to have interests far and beyond. People are finding you all the time.
Heather: Receipt Bank must be such an easier solution to selling to the US because it’s not really compliance-based; it’s just sort of pushing the information out. Whereas, Xero has to change for its payroll, for its tax, and I think it has to reflect it in each different state as somewhat different. So, did you find that?
David: Yes, a hundred per cent correct. It’s still very early days in the US for Receipt Bank. I only have minimal involvement in the US, but certainly there are far more considerations when you are talking about financial software, payroll legislations, and tax rates and everything else. When you are simply reading data, there are a lot of implementations. When you asked before when should the US be on your radar, I don’t think it’s quite product-specific to be in a creditor debtor area as opposed to the financial side where you do have to make those considerations. It’s easier to roll out in a country like the US.
Heather: Reflecting upon your time at Xero and at Receipt Bank, what were your successes and what perhaps would you have done differently? That’s quite a huge question. See if there is something that you want to pick out.
David: Certainly, I think I get excited by disruptive technologies and the fact that you don’t have to keep doing things the way they’ve traditionally been done. Having come from a background of accounting software and going back to DOS days with one application open on your screen at one time, and suddenly you could have Microsoft Word and Excel opened and you’re able to multitask. Then, everybody thought, “Wow! The productivity impact is just phenomenal.”
So, they didn’t see that go down the path of the cloud where you are now able to work anywhere, anytime and in any device. There is so much power in your hands from multiple devices. It’s just been an incredible evolution. I was going somewhere with this.
Heather: Successes, and what would have done differently? Maybe, we’re talking about the successes.
David: I guess it’s just building a team that was passionate about what we’re doing and that was genuine and really wanting to help automate processes and address every day pain points. I guess it’s so rewarding. I’ve said earlier that both teams were just so just genuine about how they were able to assist accountants, bookkeepers and small businesses to be so much more productive and efficient and in turn be profitable through automating processes where I’ve spent so much time doing things manually.
Previously, we were doing them in a laborious way. The amount of time and capacity we were able to get back and continue to get back allowed to either take on additional clients or provide additional services that are generally far more efficient and profitable business. So, that was certainly very rewarding.
It’s not easy building a team, and building a team at that speed. You spend a lot of time recruiting. You spend a lot of time doing some pretty bad interviews. But then, the good people certainly stand out. Finding good recruitment people to deal with it is a challenge in itself. But, at the end of the day, in the back of my mind, my policy was always will they fit into the organisation and there will be a good culture. I figured that, in both organisations, the rest could essentially be taught.
I’ve always asked myself the question, would I be happy to have a beer with this person? Will I drink beer or not? Or, drink coffee? If there is someone where I don’t see myself being able to have that time outside of work, then generally the answer is no. They are a little unfit for the organisation. I think that the teams I deal with I am certainly very proud of. The role that I was able to play in helping build those teams, the Sydney office of Xero and the Australian operation for Receipt Bank, I’m certainly very proud of the teams. I hope they continue to go from strength to strength, which is wonderful.
Lessons learnt was the other side. Look, you can never go quick enough I think. Sometimes you do sort of sweat on your hands and you sit back and say, are they happy with where things are today? But if you’ve got to keep pressing the foot down, you really do. How do we continue to innovate? I think it’s even more relevant to the eco system out there because you’re going to see accounting software [being the start] to our users in a friendly way. They will start to [cannibalize] in some regards into the offering of some of the add-on solutions.
Heather: Yes, absolutely. They did that with payroll two years ago, didn’t they? They’ve done that somewhat with inventory as well.
David: Yes, and I have read some announcements they’ve got some of that. That’s what they’re doing with paperless receipts. There is a debtor chasing was announced yesterday. It does get very interesting. We continue to innovate, gain first-mover advantage, and continue to excite at anything that can be automated by Xero in Australia. It is inevitable. Software is, without a doubt, eating the world. They’re going to see more and more businesses go out of business. In turn, software just simply replaces traditional businesses. We are seeing that all the time.
Heather: To go back to the thing that you were talking about the recruitment, what has been interesting from an outsider’s perspective is to sort of see this flow of stuff between Xero and the add-on community and perhaps back into Xero. You’re an example of that. You find yourself talking to someone. It was like, “Wait, weren’t you working there? What has happened there?” Do you think that is because of the recruitment issues that there seems to be this giant pool of talent, and people just keep moving within the community because of that?
David: I think it’s contagious and infectious. It’s a very exciting place to work. If you’re working with an accounting software vendor, a logical progression would be to look at that flourish in eco system. There are so many businesses that are starting up every day, but the experiences in an organisation such as Xero are led very well to the broader eco system. I think you’re probably going to start seeing that happen in reverse a lot more as well.
The learnings are probably even quicker within the eco system these days because they are so nimble and they are smaller operations. They go and work at Xero, and I’m looking for a talent. Not that you want to weaken the eco system, but there will be instances where it’s the right opportunity. Then, we are certainly seeing that from time to time. So, I think you have any talents you would hope to see in the eco system, and I notice a very good relationship between the likes Xero and the eco system.
It’s like I’m going to lose someone for the right reason. We would love to see them remain in the eco system because they are still benefitting the greater cause. And they’re still hoping that, at the end of the day, our customers want the same. We are ultimately looking to try and assist accountants, bookkeepers and small businesses. So, it’s very much a tandem relationship; it’s one big family. I think it really is. I think that it’s a logical progression in both ways.
Heather: It’s very interesting to hear you say that.
We are surrounded by so many startups. Do you feel the inclination to take the risks and join a startup and see where the journey can take you?
David: They’re exciting places to work. They certainly are. I mean you can errr on the side of conservatism and say, if they were easy to do, go and take a cruisy position where there are established organisations. But I have to say that they are startups, and the things that they’re able to achieve in a short time really excites me, particularly where it’s a disruptive technology and changing the way things have been done traditionally. So, that’s where I am at the moment.
I get excited by a lot of these startup organisations. At the moment, it’s in the accounting. It’s kind of where I’ve been, but there are certainly very many exciting startup opportunities that are out there that are little left behind perhaps in accounting. There are so many opportunities out there also. But disruptive technology, to me, is the real deal. We’re just watching how quickly this great idea can turn into significant business in a very short time.
Heather: Yes, it’s very exciting. I always have the analogy that these startup businesses are like wind surface, and they can just change direction really quickly. Whereas, the large businesses are sort of like the cruise liners and they’re heading in one direction and change direction a lot slower. So, it’s quite exciting to see how quickly they can move.
David, how does someone in your role, in a Senior Sales and Marketing role, manage a work-life balance when you’re so busy and have to travel so much?
David: It’s always a big challenge. Work-life balance is something that comes up all the time. When you’re managing a team, it always gets raised. Certainly, you need to be mindful of your own situation as well. It’s a challenge. It’s a challenge when you have family; it’s a challenge when you have children. They’re part of the reasons why I made some of the decisions I’ve made in recent years to have a little bit of a break between them, between gigs, and spend some quality time with the children because there are significant commitments when you’re working in a relatively senior position with these startups. No question at all.
They consume you. You do take your work home with you. In the cloud, you’re always accessible. Needless to say, turn off your phone. When you put your cell phone away, you’re responsible for this. So, you will be starting at 6AM effectively and you’re finishing at 10PM. Sleep, wake up, and then you already have a good load of email communications that you need to respond to. There are phone messages potentially as well. So, it’s a real challenge.
But, like I’ve said to many people before, you need to own that. You can’t expect anyone else to manage it for you. So, work-life balance is something you need to take ownership of. Apart from that, there are sort of things that I’ve tried myself. I encourage the blocking out of time. You miss your schedule. It’s unlikely to happen.
I’ve always encouraged my team to grey out areas in their calendar. If that means they want to get to the gym during lunchtimes, block that out in the calendar for three days. If there are certain days of the week you want to get home early, block out that area as well and make sure that it happens. As long as you’re achieving what we expected from you and put in an honest week work, I’ve never wanted to watch the clock. If someone wants a day of leave, it’s really of no consequence to me. Likewise, I still need to take a day to catch up on things as well, so be it. It’s more important that you get the work done. Really, it’s the honesty of the individual. You do have to schedule that time with your family for yourself and for your own personal interest.
Heather: So, scheduling time. I was just listening to Richard Branson’s audio book. He had this philosophy which was—don’t monitor away days and sick days within the workplace. Just let people do it. As long as they meet their responsibilities and tasks, which is what you were saying, the book was several years ago, he has actually rolled out into many of his Virgin offices, but I think it’s a really nice philosophy to have if you can do it. I know, I’ve set up a few businesses that run on that philosophy. No, we’re not going to monitor away days, etcetera.
David: I know. I’m a massive subscriber to that philosophy. It gets far more important that people are getting the job done. If they’re good enough to get it done in a short time and have more time for themselves, well, wonderful! Certainly, the organisations that I’ve worked with in recent times have people that work over and beyond. Their number of hours that they’re putting in is never in question because they’re putting in such a significant week’s work. Absolutely, if they can get it done in quick time, go have a long lunch. Go and spend the afternoon.
Heather: Yes, absolutely. In my experience, every time I go out, everyone wants to ask me about Xero or some add-on solutions anyway. I’m like, this is my downtime, but let me talk about your business management platform for your web design business, etcetera. I bet they’re probably in the same situation.
Heather: What do you look forward to doing most in your work-life, David?
David: Genuinely, get a lot of satisfaction out of seeing people appreciate that there is a better way they can be doing what they’ve been doing all their life for a long time. When you’re in this technology space, it’s amazing how people get complacent. Just because they’ve always done a particular task one way, they continue to do that task that way. But the way their eyes light up when you show them that there is a better way, they realise that it’s that moment where they may not be spending three hours a week doing a certain task one way when they could be doing it in ten minutes. It’s like a revelation. I find that really rewarding.
That goes right back to my days at Attache software. Technologies are wonderful. We are able to automate a process. We are able to give people time back so they can have a better work-life balance. I think it’s such a wonderful way. That’s why I’m so attracted to this industry. That is what’s most rewarding for me.
Heather: Awesome! Looking outwards, what do you think is next for David in the eco system or anywhere?
David: As I’ve said a few times, I remain passionate about disruptive technology, particularly the ones that address the everyday paying points or problems that businesses experience. There are other opportunities. I know there are other opportunities out there with the broader eco system. I’m in a whole bunch of very interesting discussions at the moment with a number of [players]. I think it’s just getting tight to make sure that I make what decisions are right for me. It’s an exploding place, so I have to move too far. I remain very open to discussions. So, I’m very happy to talk to a lot of people about their exciting plans.
Heather: Excellent! Sensational! Thank you so much David for sharing your insights with the listeners of the podcast. We really appreciate it. I’m sure a lot of people from the add-on solutions, accountants and bookkeepers will learn a lot from this from what you’ve shared.
David: Thank you. I just wanted to say that you’re an amazing advocate for all things cloud. Since I’ve been with both Xero and Receipt Bank, I was really flattered that you gave me a call and talk about what I like to be. I’m a big fan of your podcast.
Heather: Thank you so much. That’s really sweet of you to say that.